David Peck
Username: David_peck
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 04:59 pm:
Has anyone any views on the pros and cons of gunter rig as opposed to the prevailing gaff and topsail. My WB Cockle is Gunter rigged and maybe doesn't look as pretty as a Gaff and top sail, but is undoubtably easier to rig and sail. My experience of top sails was on a Morecambe Bay Prawner which I used to own (coincidently having a Eric Bergqvist fibregalass hull). I never did manage to make much of the top sail, usually too much wind to need it and too many ropes to launch and control it!
The gunter mains'l appears to be about the same sail area as the gaff main and topsail combined and therefore sails with more area than gaff mainsail alone, but effectively with a lower centre of effort than when the Gaff and tops'l are raised.
Has anybody any views? I'm willing to effect a change if there are any advantages in the top'sl and gaff rig.
Roger Parish
Username: Roger_parish
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 07:33 pm:
If appearance is not an issue then I would stick with the gunter rig. If you have the same sail area then you must have a longer luff and boom. The longer luff should improve your windward performance. Off wind with no kicker a lot of wind is spilled by the gaff arm falling away and may be more easily controlled with the gunter sail. There is only one way to test it and sail against a differently rigged boat.
Julian Swindell
Username: Julian_swindell
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 09:40 am:
I would agree with Roger. I have a topsail and enjoy using it when there is practically no wind, largely because it gives me something to do whilst drifting backwards on the tide. It also ellicits lots of oohs and ahhs from passing boats, but I doubt that it adds any measurable speed. When not using the sail, the halyard and, in particular, the sheet are an absolute pain. The sheet always gets tangled round the gaff when I try to raise it in a hurry. I also had the embarassment on a nice sunny day of pulling up very neatly to an anchorage, forgetting that the topsail was up. As I drifted towards the perfect point amongst the other boats I stepped causally forward to drop the main sail in a controlled and professional manner, which would undoutedly ellicit further ooohs and ahhs of admiration at my seamanship skills. Finding the **** topsail was still set ellicited far more interesting language from me, frantic throwing off of ropes, to no avail, and ending with me and boat stuck on the beach with all the sails and ropes hanging over the side in the water. I don't show off any more...
Having said all that, I wouldn't change the gaff rig for gunter, I just think it is prettier!
Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 07:35 pm:
I am afraid I am lazy and I don't bother with topsail ropes other than the halyard. I have the topsail permanently fixed to the gaff at the jaw end and outer end, and when I want to lower it I merely release the halyard until the spar lies against the gaff.I was sailing in 25 knotts of wind on the River Orwell a couple of weeks ago and it was quite happy lying against the gaff with the main fully reefed.I am not sure why it doesn't flap about more than it does.
David Peck
Username: David_peck
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 08:25 pm:
Interesting comments. The topsail really makes the boat look good but maybe the skipper not so good if he forgets it's there. I look forward to sailing adjacent to another WB with a gaff, partly for the view, and partly for the company, not forgetting the comparative performance. Am I the only one with Gunter Rig? I have never seen a picture of one except on an advertising article about the WB in PBO(copy shop ref 86&93).
Julian Swindell
Username: Julian_swindell
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, May 05, 2008 - 09:36 pm:
The very first Winkle Brig I saw was a gunter rigged version, for sale in Weymouth about four or five years ago. I don't know the name or number, but it was blue and a bit the worse for wear at the time.
Julian Swindell
Username: Julian_swindell
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 11:14 am:
If you look at the WB gallery, WB95 and WB96 are both gunter rigged.
Roger Parish
Username: Roger_parish
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 05:36 pm:
I dont think that those two boats are true Gunter rig. With gunter rig the gaff arm should sit very tight to the mast giving the appearance and effect of a bermudan sail but with the benefit of a short mast. The mirror dinghy is Gunter rigged.
Roger Parish
Username: Roger_parish
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 05:36 pm:
I dont think that those two boats are true Gunter rig. With gunter rig the gaff arm should sit very tight to the mast giving the appearance and effect of a bermudan sail but with the benefit of a short mast. The mirror dinghy is Gunter rigged.
Julian Swindell
Username: Julian_swindell
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 05:50 pm:
Roger is right. The alternative rig on the winkle brig is technically a high-peaked gaff. I had a lot of discussion with someone once about why a true gunter rig, like the Mirror dinghy, is actually classed as a lug sail and not a gaff. The answer, I gathered, is that a true gaff sail always has two halyards, a throat and a peak. A lug sail only has one. A gunter, like the Mirror, only does have one halyard (I know, I used to have one), so technically its gaff ain't a gaff, it's a yard.
Does the high peaked winkle brig have two halyards? As far as I can tell from photographs, they also have a gaff saddle, because of the high angle, rather than the simple gaff jaws on the low peaked version. I would prefer a gaff saddle on mine, but I'm put off by the horrendous cost. best part of £200.
David Peck
Username: David_peck
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 02:12 pm:
I didn't notice that the Gallery pictures of WB's 95 and 96 showed Gunter Rig. I think this is possibly due to the fact that they don't appear to be pulled tight into the mast as Roger comments in his posting.
'Cockle' is rigged with just one halliard fastened to the Gaff which, if the Knot is small, pulls the gaff up nearly vertical giving a near straight line luff on the mainsail. This is how the picture in my posting in Misc/'articles in the press' string shows it. My Drascombe Lugger was rigged this way, and, I think, can be classed as true Gunter Rig. I have made a fitting with stainless steel cheeks screwed to the gaff, with a beaded string to hold it to the mast.
As a matter of interest there are lots of ideas for rigging details on the Cape Cutter Web site www.capecutter19.com. ( the cost of some of them I suspect are somewhat prohibitive)
The articles are dated 1997/8 and I think 'Cockle' was built in 1997 which may account for their similarities in rig and hatch door design.
David_owens
Username: David_owens
Registered: 04-2010
Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2011 - 08:55 pm:
I have the high peaked gaff ('gunter' rig) and have the capacity to set up a throat halyard. But is there any point on this kind of rig? Would it bestow any advantages? And what might be the cons?
Roger Parish
Username: Roger_parish
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2011 - 09:54 pm:
I would have thought it standard practice to use a throat halyard except on a true Gunter rig where the gaff is in line with the mast when the sail is hoisted. If there is no throat halyard there is no way of applying correct tension to the luff of the sail. When raising the sail use the peak halyard to raise the gaff to about 60 deg. and then pull on the throat and peak together. Temporarily belay the peak then set the throat to give the required clearance for the boom. The luff can then be tensioned and adjusted by pulling on the downhaul. It is essential for correct sail setting.
David_owens
Username: David_owens
Registered: 04-2010
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2011 - 03:14 pm:
Many thanks for this feedback Roger - appreciated. I trust all goes well on your Postboat - enjoyed your videos incidentally, and look forward to meeting you again and your new boat on the water sometime.
David Peck
Username: David_peck
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 05:29 pm:
Having just sold Cockle and bought a Vivacity 24, I was just browsing through the WB forum. The info on my post of May 13 2008 is out of date and does'nt work. I had difficulties with the rig as described and from around 2008 I used a throat halyard, a peak halyard and a gaff span rope on the gaff. Its the only way to maintain the sail shape when you try to reef. Using a halyard as I previously described works reasonably well until you try to reef as the angle of the gaff and the mast gets bigger and the sail shape drastically alters.( I don't think I had need to reef prior to 2008!
The peak halyard and gaff span and throat halyard maintain the shape perfectly. You live and learn.
High Peaked Gaff Mainsail.
My boat came with the standard Low Peaked Gaff Mainsail & Topsail, which, with minor modifications, have served me well for 7 years but I rather fancied the High Peaked Mainsail, offered as an option with original build.
From Arun Sails, successors to the original makers, I tried without success, to get a dimensioned drawing of the HP sail.
In the end, Mike Seller (WB 95) supplied me with a measured drawing of his original HP sail.
From this as a basis, Goacher Sails of Bowness, made me a good new sail at a reasonable price.
Longer spars were required, so first class spar timber was obtained from Robbins, again at a reasonable price.
(Spruce for the gaff and Douglas Fir for the boom.)
Jaws, in the original style, I fashioned from Ash for the boom and laminated Ash/Iroko for the gaff.
Finally completed this winter, the new arrangement has been put to the test and I am well pleased.
The sail is easy to hoist and lower, the boat feels better balanced, with weather helm reduced.
I am sure she sails better to windward, than with low peaked gaff alone and I am less bothered by gusts than when the topsail was set.
At an area of 115 ft2,( Less than main+topsail but more than main alone.) and more of the sail near the foot, I feel confident in a moderate wind.
I haven't yet been out in a wind strong enough to require a reef and will be interested to see at what force this is needed.
Following my original sail, reefing points were placed at 700mm & 1,400mm above the foot. I am not sure this is the best placement and think perhaps, 500mm & 1,000mm might be better. Experience will tell and I will amend if necessary.
Two recently added photographs in the 'Gallery'show the boat under sail.
High Peaked Mainsail:
Hi David, I am back on the forum if not yet back on the water. Very interesting reading about your experience with the high peak gaff rig now it is in commission. Glad to hear that you achieved the performance gains you hoped for. It also looks fantastic, rather like a Cornish Crabbers Shrimper I thought.
Hi David or indeed anyone who knows, it's me again. I hope you can help. Regarding the high peaked sail, I have the possibility of swapping my main and topsail with spars for an original high peaked rig. I am a little confused though. Your sail, which looks gorgeous, is copied from WB95. I have looked at some others in the gallery, WB61, which was for sale last week and WB112, which look completely different. Actually more like a larger version of my sail. I thought there were two alternative rigs. Do you know if there were more? I am after the look you have achieved with the ease of a single sail.
Hi Paul, WB61 and WB112 look to me to be standard main (+topsail). WB112 looks like it has the metal spars. I am not aware of a third rig arrangement, I have only ever seen the standard main + topsail and the high peaked gaff.
I agree with David.
Examples of high peaked gaff shown in the gallery are: WB106/96/95/91.
Many thanks David and Dave. I must be getting my Winkle Brigs in a twist. I was fooled by an erroneous description in a for sale ad. It seems the high peak rig was mainly fitted to the later boats from the evidence.