The Winklebrig Forum

About the boat => The Engine => Topic started by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:33:02 AM

Title: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:33:02 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:16 am:      
I have been thinking about replacing my rather heavy Tohatsu 6hp with an electric outboard, not only to reduce weight aft, but I also like the idea of silent running and a greener alternative to a petrol engine.
However, I don't like the idea of running out of battery power at the entrance of Southwold harbour or having a huge battery bank onboard.
I have therefore been reading with interest the blogs like this one :- (http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/2727/flicka_diesel_electric.html) about hybrid technology whereby you could have a very light electric outboard in the engine well linked to a small diesel generator (positioned where the portapotti was designed to go).
Anyone any views?
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:33:22 AM

Roger Parish
Username: Roger_parish

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 08:34 pm:      
I have often watched boats entering Southwold Harbour and in the weather conditions prevailing at the time I would not have settled for anthing less than your 6 Hp outboard! You seem quite happy to sacrifice your green credentials to a diesel generator so does it just come down to a weight problem? Can you get away with a smaller Hp and lighter engine? If you have the original WB rudder hanging on the stern then there is opportunity to reduce weight significantly by making a new one.
Just make sure that all work is finished before the TSA Broads trip at Easter.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:33:41 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 06:05 pm:      
Yes. You are right about my credentials. I don't see much merit in being 'green' for its own sake, but I do like efficiency (and I read that a diesel electric drive is a very efficient way of using a diesel engine).

I will certainly look at the rudder which is indeed very heavy. I had alway imagined though that this doesn't add much to the weight as it is largely submerged (ie supported by the water rather than the boat). Am I wrong?

I won't be doing anything before Easter, so we can save the planet together then.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:33:57 AM

David Cawston
Username: David_cawston

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 09:47 pm:      
When I launch Markie, I remove the rudder and when in the water I teeter over the transome rail and lower the rudder vertically into the water. I find it floats about 9 inches below its normal position and very little effort is required to lift it to the correct height to fit the rudder pin. So yes Martin, it is mostly supported by the water. The only advantage in making a lightweight rudder is the ease of moving it when not in the water and reducing the weight on the trailer.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:34:13 AM

Roger Parish
Username: Roger_parish

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 03:16 pm:      
I think it is time to take a bath and contemplate Archimedes Principle! Provided that the two rudders being considered are the same shape and displace the same volume of water then the uplifting forces are the same. The resulting forces acting on the transom downwards will the weight of each rudder. In practice what will happen is that the stern of the boat will lift by a very very small amount to balance. You do therefore achieve the benefit of the reduced weight when the rudder is in position. However because the pintles and headstock castings are so great I think I only achieved a third reduction in weight.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:34:28 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 05:19 pm:      
Over to you David!
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:34:46 AM

Roger Parish
Username: Roger_parish

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 07:18 pm:      
Perhaps this explains things better and is an extract from Wikipedia entry on Archimedes.
"Suppose a rock's weight is measured as 10 newtons when suspended by a string in a vacuum. Suppose that when the rock is lowered by the string into water, it displaces water of weight 3 newtons. The force it then exerts on the string from which it hangs would be 10 newtons minus the 3 newtons of buoyant force: 10 - 3 = 7 newtons." If the rocks weight is then reduced by 3 Newtons then the load in the string (pintles) will be reduced by 3 Newtons. QED!
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:35:08 AM

David Cawston
Username: David_cawston

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 12:23 am:      
I agree with 'Professor' Parish, there would be a very minimal rise in the stern. If the rudder was made too light (whilst maintaining it's volume, got to keep Archimedes happy) it could ride up on the pintles, especially if a wave hit the stern. Now please excuse my long forgotten schoolboy physics. I feel sure the force required to lift Markie's rudder from its floating position to its working position on the pintles is a lot less than 1/3 of the overall force required to hold the rudder in fresh air, so if the rudder is reduced in weight by 1/3rd, surely it would no longer rest on the pintles, but would ride up? Crikey, this is getting a long way off thread but I do enjoy a good 'conversation'!
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:35:26 AM

Julian Swindell
Username: Julian_swindell

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 10:24 am:      
I'm getting seriously interested in an electric outboard. I have always been concerned that you could get caught with a flat battery, but have suddenly realised that every year I am caught out with a @#!**! outboard that cuts out or won't start when it's needed. Even one that was practically new. The fact that I had enough fuel on board for 10 hours motoring was irrelevant, the engine just wouldn't go. So maybe a limited battery charge is not such a limitation after all. Has anyone had any experience with the (very expensive) Torqeedo outboard with the clip on battery? It had a very good review in PBO a couple of months ago.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:35:42 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 10:25 am:      
I still like the idea of an electric motor and the Torqeedo seems to be the one to go for if it wasn't so expensive! I am hoping that battery technology will continue to improve and prices will continue to come down so that it will be a realistic proposition in about two years time!
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:35:59 AM

Barend Nieuwendijk
Username: Barend_nieuwendijk

Registered: 08-2008
   
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 11:13 pm:      
Hi,
Last weekend in the Netherlands we had the HISWA boat show and I had the opportunity to try the Torqeedo. The motor was mounted on a RIB.
It was the Cruise 4.0 model. This model is de top of the range but can be compared with the cruise 2.0 (of which I was thinking of).
Well: it makes noise, to much noise I think. Only in the lower speed the sound is acceptable. Half throttle is very noisy. With full speed the sound drops a bit.
All together is my conclusion that I will not buy this motor.

I now orientate myself on an other type of motor: the so called POD see http://www.etd-net.nl/Aandrijvingen.html
They are expensive, but at this moment in some parts of the Netherlands you can get subsidy
(euro 1500), so may be I can arrange something.
Will be continued.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:36:15 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 06:26 pm:      
Greetings Good Sailors,

Just joined the Forum, having recently bought a Winklebrig. Noticed your comments about Electric Motors - don't know if it is too late, but I've been using one for a time. My previous boat was about 150kgs heavier than a Winklebrig, and I used a 55lb thrust Flover motor - very quiet and easy to use. However, be aware that you will need a big battery - about a 100amp hour leisure battery - not a car battery. That will give about 3hrs running, but if it's greater than a Force 2 wind, you will struggle. One of my fellow Club Members actually has an array of photo cells on the cabin roof, and this gives power without the need for a battery - but still you have the wind strength problem. Hope that gives some food for thought
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:36:31 AM

David Cawston
Username: David_cawston

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 11:27 pm:      
Hi George, welcome to the joys of WB ownership. Hope you find the forum useful.
So from your experience, a motor like the Minn Kota Riptide 101 lb electric outboard should have reasonable power to move a WB even in slightly adverse conditions. Obviously there is then the problem of battery storage as touched on earlier as this motor requires 36 volts.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:36:47 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 09:10 pm:      
Greetings Young man, and thanks for the welcome. The motor you mention seems to have plenty of umph, but as you note, as you need an awful lot of battery power - possibly three batteries at 12volt - some weight, plus where would you secure them? I chose my current motor 'cause it was light to carry about, and only needed one x 12volt battery. The other thing was that on the technical bits web site, it is suggested that the motor will push along a boat up to 21 ft LOA. One other advantage to me is that I kept my previous cruiser on a mooring, so the motor was a welcome alternative to rowing! For this I used a 12volt gel filled alarm battery - relatively light! One thing to watch though - an on/off switch in addition to the throttle control is desirable - when fastening the engine to the rowing dinghy, nearly lost a leg several times when we caught the throttle without realising it! Hope that helps anyone reading this - but if you can wait till next April, once I put the baot in the water, I can tell you how this engine performs on the WB
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:37:03 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 07:22 pm:      
I would be very interested to hear from George and Barend how the electric motor 'trials' are proceeding.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:37:21 AM

Barend Nieuwendijk
Username: Barend_nieuwendijk

Registered: 08-2008
   
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:35 pm:      
Hi Martin

Yust got home from the first trip with my WB with electric propulsion. I will try te put a story on this forum this week.
One thing I already can tell: because of the weight of te batteries (120 kg) the WB sails much more stable. We had hard winds today and with two reefs she sailed very well.

The rest of the story follows.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:37:39 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 05:52 pm:      
Greetings All,

Having put my Mean Machine in the water, I found the Electric Motor pushed WB along reasonably well - it was a good Force 3, gusting (but only just) to a 4. This was on a large lake.

The lack of noise is quite different - and needs checking to make sure the drive is either going back / forward or neutral. The twist grip on my motor has a spring which is a little on the 'gentle' side - as I discovered after leaving the mooring, intending to head into the lake, and wondered why I was just about going back towards the shore - yes, I was in reverse! So a slight modification - application of a couple of blobs of white paint on the twist grip, and one on the steering arm, so I know which way the engine is going.

Otherwise it seems fine, and two other boats in the Club, a Pandora and Hunter Medina, are both using the same make and size of motor, which seems to push them along quite well - they weigh about 350 - 400 lbs more than the WB.

Battery storage is not such a problem - I've strapped an old plastic toolbox to the cross member where the motor is clamped, and it doesn't get under the feet, and performance seems unaffected - well a WB must have some sort of performance!

Can't vouch for effectiveness out on the tide, but the lake I sail on has an outlet to a large river, so we do get a small amount of current.

If anyone does fit one of these motors, don't get alarmed by the humming noise which increases as the boat speed increases - more noticeable when running - it's the propeller turning in neutral!
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:37:57 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2010 - 08:57 am:      
Thanks George. Which motor are you using? What do you estimate your range is on a single charge at average cruising speed?

Looking forward to hearing from you Barend.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:38:13 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2010 - 07:15 pm:      
Hello Martin. I'm using a 55lb thrust Flover (am I allowed to advertise?). It uses about 4amp/hr, so IN THEORY, it should give anout 20hrs running with a 110amp leisure battery. So about 15miles? but at about 2 - 3 knots estimated. The engine does have a battery state indicator built into it, and it's interesting to watch it especially when going in fifth gear forward and then slowing to third gear! A couple of points to remember - this engine is about the largest one currently available which uses a 12v supply. Larger thrust ones are available, but they need 24v - probably 2 x 12v battery in series - lot of weight, and space taken up in the cockpit or cabin. I tried to get a 12v leisure gel filled battery, safer as no sloppy acid! My local garage were happy to oblige, and found one at a very good price, but not from their usual wholesaler. It was an Internet site, based in the UK. We were about to order when he told me of the problems another customer had had with a leisure battery, and we decided that the garage's wholesaler was safer, as we knew they would provide a three year warranty. Final point - I used this engine last season, probably about five hours usage in total, on a heavier boat, the battery was only charged at the end of the season, and was still quite well charged. Also, I had a solar panel on the other boat which gave a tickle charge - but I never measured the charge. Having said all of that, I'd be a bit apprehensive about relying on a battery driven engine, especially if the weather looked set to be nasty! Hope that helps
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:38:31 AM

David Cawston
Username: David_cawston

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2010 - 07:16 pm:      
Yes come on Barend, spill the beans, how did it go? Have you been in contact with the Electric Boat Association, someone with a WB with electric propulsion has been talking to them and they are very keen to get an article for their newsletter
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:38:49 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2010 - 07:28 pm:      
Hi Dave, they can use some of my observations above if they want,
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:39:14 AM

Barend Nieuwendijk
Username: Barend_nieuwendijk

Registered: 08-2008
   
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 12:09 am:      
Hi David,

Sorry for the delay.
I am so busy with work (and sailing) that there is no time left.
Hereby some details:

I have invested in a powerful electric propulsion. I have experimented with the Minn Kota stuff before, but that is to light weighted for an Winkle Brig. In Holland you need power to struggle the wind in canals

So I have:
A 2,5 KW motor which is mounted underneath the WB. It is a so called POD-motor
To make that possible I closed the well (with plywood , glass math and epoxy)
The water problem in the cockpit I solved with two holes (I can not find the right word for it)
The motor is very powerful (equivalent to 6 – 8 horse power)
The batteries are 4 x 6V heavy traction AGM (the are totally closed and can be held upside down), 225 Ah, weight ± 120 kg. I used the space where the portapotti used to be. The fit in exactly.
So I have 5400 watt to spare.
The time to fern differs with the speed: see the table. We measured this with a GPS. Its the average from no wind tot force 4 on the bow

speed
knts. current sailing time in hrs.
0,56 .... 3,00.... 60,00
1,11 .... 4,00.... 45,00
1,67 .... 8,00.... 22,50
2,22 .... 12,00.... 15,00
2,78 .... 20,00.... 9,00
3,33 .... 30,00.... 6,00
3,89 .... 40,00.... 4,50
4,44 .... 70,00.... 2,57
5 ..... 90,00.... 2,00

(from the 225 Ah you can use 80 % without harming the batteries)


I think I can get better performance because the propeller is not the right one. I need a bigger one with less pitch.

So far so good.
Next time I tell you more about my experiences, my studies on batteries, battery loaders, and so on.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:39:32 AM

Julian Swindell
Username: Julian_swindell

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 03:14 pm:      
I have been interested in electric propulsion, but I can't make it make sense yet. By Barend's calculations, cruising at 3kts gives under 9 hours travelling time, with a battery weight of 120kg plus motor weight. My 6HP outboard with an external tank would cruise at that speed for probably over 24hrs, total weight about 35kg and only about 3 minutes to refill the tank almost anywhere on the coast. And you've lost your loo! Faced with that, I can't really see what the benefits of electrics are. On top of that, I keep my boat on a mooring so I can't see how I would recharge the batteries. What are the plus sides to it?
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:39:53 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 08:20 pm:      
The plus side is quite obvious - think of the exercise you'll get heaving the batteries back and forth, but you've spotted the biggest problem, I think - how do you charge the battery? Incidentally, I missed a decimal point in my earlier note - I probably will get about 3 hours usage at half speed, using a single 110ah battery so it's a long way to go to beat a petrol engine. I use the motor only because petrol engines are not allowed where I sail
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:40:10 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 07:04 pm:      
I think you are all being a little hard on Barend!
Plus points of an electric motor :-
1. Quiet when you want it to be quite ie when motorsailing which is quite common in my Winklebrig.
2. Weight of batteries can be moved forward to where the weight is needed. (Who wants/needs a chemical portaloo?!), leaving only the lightweight motor on the transom which is the worst place to have a heavy weight as it digs the stern in and increases drag through the water in the well.
3.Could you not have a cheap portable generator to boost the batteries in an emergency?
4.Unlike Julian I tow my boat to each sailing location. In these circumstances doesn't it seem sensible to use the (free)car generator to charge the batteries each time?
I for one am still very interested in the electric option, so keep posting Barend.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:40:28 AM

Barend Nieuwendijk
Username: Barend_nieuwendijk

Registered: 08-2008
   
Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2010 - 10:53 pm:      
I will, I will
I know all te pro's and contra's and will tell you why I choosed for te electric option.
But the next days I am traveling abroad, so you should have some patience with me.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:40:46 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2011 - 09:41 am:      
What is the latest on the electric motor situation? There see to be alot of new products available. The Torqueedo 1003 with the solar panel charger looks interesting. http://www.torqeedo.com/en/hn/products/travel-503-1003.html
Anyone any views?
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:41:02 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 05:14 pm:      
You're right Martin, it does look interesting. The specification seems to be a 24v motor, which means at least two 12v in series? However, they don't need to be big heavy batteries, you could use smaller capacity, with of course a shorter usage time. The charger is certainly an interesting idea, but I wonder how long it would take to charge the battery(or batteries).

Has anybody looked into the idea of using solar panels to run the motor, without needing a battery? I've used a small panel on another Cruiser, which output 12v and kept the battery topped up, but the battery was used for a Cabin light and Instruments, so not a lot of power needed. It was mounted on the deck, not by me, in a perfect position for you to stand on it when needing to go forward. In spite of this, it worked fine, so they seem robust enough, but the output is the issue.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:41:25 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 04:52 pm:      
I was looking at the Torqueedo 1003 'Travel' model which has an integral battery and a remote throttle and which can apparently can be powered entirely from the solar panel without the need for the battery!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv0PD0X8qSg

What do you think?!
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:41:41 AM

Julian Swindell
Username: Julian_swindell

Registered: 03-2007
   
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 11:21 am:      
I would take some convincing. Quoting a cruising speed without any reference to the type of boat that is cruising sounds like hype. I think the solar panel sounds interesting, but it's main use woudl be keeping the battery charged, which it might do well. But I wouldn't want an engine that woudl die on me if it got cloudy.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:41:56 AM

George Billington
Username: George_billington

Registered: 12-2009
   
Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 10:41 am:      
I'd be sceptical about the ability to keep the battery fully charged. Where would you put the panel on a WB It's enormous. I asked an Electrician friend of mine, who is an authorised solar panel installer, and he tells me that panels producing 12 volts generate about 500watts per square metre, and the panel needs to be at 90 degrees to the sun to work at its most efficient. What they didn't say is where the battery is - it looks to be under the top cover. If so it solves the weight problem but would a five hour recharge be acceptable?
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:42:13 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 06:46 pm:      
I agree.The solar panel is unlikely to be satisfactory on a Winklebrig in this country. How about a wind generator to keep the battery topped up? (They are about the same price as the solar panel). This would have the added advantage of charging as you tow to and from the launch site. I have never seen one on a boat behind a car, but you would charge up pretty quickly! Would it be legal?
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:42:32 AM

Barend Nieuwendijk
Username: Barend_nieuwendijk

Registered: 08-2008
   
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 10:46 pm:      
The idea sounds nice (an wind generator powered by the towing car) but is not as efficient as the generator in your car. You can very easily connect the power circuit form your car your to the boat’s battery. The dynamo of your car can possibly charge about 40 ah. So two hours driving can recharge an 80 ah battery.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:42:51 AM

Brian Goodbourn
Username: Brian_goodbourn

Registered: 01-2009
   
Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2011 - 12:54 pm:      
Hi

I have a Torqueedo 801 which is the previous model to the solar charge (trickle) one that has rcently been released. The unit is quite powerful and can push my boat along quite comfortably though I use a 4hp normally.....the motor mount would need to modified to fit it permanently as the battery sits back quite away and fouls on the transom.
Good points:
- Folds up and is quite light
- No Fuel smells and spills
- Very quiet
- Battery will run for 2 to 4 hours dependent on use
- The battery is a new generation Lithium type and holds the charge very well.....I used it in October and didn't charge it all winter and she was still 80% charged last week when I used it.

The reason I bought it is that my little Honda air-cooled was stolen from my sailing club and it didn't like travelling in my car......so it seemed the next natural step.
What's more because it folds I can take it on my scooter and park up anywhere when it's busy at the club...

The down side is that it is expensive and salt water and electrics seem a strange mixture(though no issue so far)
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:43:13 AM

Barend Nieuwendijk
Username: Barend_nieuwendijk

Registered: 08-2008
   
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 09:44 pm:      
Hi,
With the new season ahead I would like to share with you my experiences from last year.
As you maybe remember, I changed my outboard for an electric propulsion (2,5 kw which equals about 6 hp). With battery power (230 ah , 24 volt, weight 130 kg, the motor-sailing time is 9 – 10 hours with 2,5 – 3 knots, maximum speed = hull speed for 2,5 hours), 30 ah battery charger aboard)

We made several trips in the Dutch waters (canals and lakes) in the north and mid Netherlands.
Our Frisian lakes are about the same as the Norfolk broads but then bigger and wider, but no current. The trips were one week an several weekends.
In our sailing waters you find a lot of villages, small harbours and many places where you can moor, anker or berth. In almost every harbour you will find an power outlet

Well: it was superb. The absent of motor noise, the ease of use, no smell.
Because most of the time we had sail-power, we had no worries about charging of the battery. Some distances we had to motor a canal against strong winds. The power of the motor was sufficient.
Because I felt that the standard delivered propeller was not the right one I have changed it this winter with a Torqeeudo propeller because of its superb performance.

The battery capacity is enough for several days sailing and as I told, charging the batteries was no problem because everywhere you can find an power outlet. Of course I was worried in the beginning: would I have enough power (in worst circumstances) to reach the harbour? But I am used to the power consumption now. No worries anymore.
Because I keep my Winkle Brig always on the trailer after sailing trips, charging afterwards is never a problem.

Because of the extra weight of the batteries, which I positioned in the porta potty’s place, I was afraid the Winkle Brig would be a bit out of balance. But she is not. The boat is much more stable and I do not think she has lost much speed. I closed the well and replaced it with two discharges (is that the right word??) I have no problems with incoming water.

Are there disadvantages with the electric motoring? Yes, there are.
When sailing with force 5 or more, the propeller starts turning around and you can hear some noise of the freewheeling motor. I cannot remember if my outboard did the same…..

And the other disadvantage: discharged batteries. In circumstances where you cannot charge regular or easily your batteries, electric propulsion is not the right thing. The use of solar cells does not help. 1 square meter cell gives you with good sunlight about 0,8 kwh per day. So in my case and with half discharged batteries you need about 2,5 days sunlight for charging.

Although it sounds a bit ridiculous, I am working on an hybrid system. It means that for long trips on waterways with no harbours or no power-outlets –or trips with the risk of empty batteries - I will use an small light-weighted generator. The generator will be packed in a noise-reduction case. The principle is that you use it as an additional power source.
For that I will use an small Yamaha 4-takt generator. This generates enough power to keep me going on cruise-speed. Because it is 4-takt it is possible to reduce the noise to almost quiet.
Most of the time I will not need the generator.

Will be continued.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:43:29 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 08:14 am:      
Very interestd in your trials Barend. Well done!
I am sure the hybrid system is the way to go and since my first post on this subject three years ago motors,batteries, and inverter generators have developed in leaps and bounds. I still like the idea of diesel electric. Keep up the good work and in a year or two when it is time to change my Tohatsu 6hp I will come and visit!
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:43:48 AM

Barend Nieuwendijk
Username: Barend_nieuwendijk

Registered: 08-2008
   
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 09:49 pm:      
Hi Martin,
We have in mind to go to the Broads one of these years. When it comes to that, I will send you an message.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:44:06 AM

Vipula De Silva
Username: Vipula_de_silva

Registered: 07-2011
   
Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 01:27 am:      
Been a little while since anyone posted about this topic. I've also been tempted by the Torqueedo 1003 for Annie Elizabeth. Seems well suite to the broads. Has anyone tried one of these yet?

Brian, if you are still reading, can you update on how the travel 801 has performed? What mods did you have to do to get it mounted in the well please?

Anyone try any other electric motors?
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:44:22 AM

Martin_cartwright
Username: Martin_cartwright

Registered: 04-2008
   
Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 09:42 am:      
Barend:- Have you looked into fuel cell technology instead of a diesel or petrol generator hybrid?
I came across this recently:- http://fuelcells.caravanmoversonline.co.uk/efoy/products/600.html
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Old Forum on April 06, 2014, 07:44:44 AM

Brian Goodbourn
Username: Brian_goodbourn

Registered: 01-2009
   
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 05:04 pm:      
Hi

I've not done much sailing this year! Sadly Patience was blown off her mooring and ended on the sea wall during a storm.

The season has been punctuated with getting quotes and someone to fix her up......good news is that work is finally underway so I hope to be sailing next season ! Thinking of the Broads for a maiden voyage.
Title: Torqueedo Electric outboards
Post by: VROUW KIRSTEN on June 21, 2016, 09:11:16 AM
Because of legal restrictions using fuel engines on lakes I want to replace my 6 PC mariner by a Torqueedo 1003S. Adding a second Batterie pack I believe I have enough electric power for all "normal" situations.  ::)

I have readed the last posts of this thread, the last two years no additional experiences were posted. Does anyone have made additional trips with a electrical outboard, especially the Torqueedo system? I do not expect  a motorboat characteristic and I feel comfortable with the absence of fuel or noise at my boat.  8)

I will be for one week at the Schlei and Flensburger Förde. This will be my testing period for the alternative electrical outboard System, I will report.

Gerold


Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Martin on June 23, 2016, 08:38:43 PM
Hello Gerold
I purchased a Torqeedo 1003S two years ago as an auxillary and for use on my inflatable dinghy. I keep it on a transom bracket when sailing and in the cabin for security when not. It is very easily stolen!
I did wire in the remote control as reaching the Torqeedo's tiller is a bit of a stretch, but this packed up within a year so I have abandoned it. I think the sunlight affects the electronics.
I sail nearly all the time on tidal/coastal waters and I would not like to have it as my sole means of propulsion, but its weight, cleanliness (no grease or fuel to spill in the cabin) and power make it a wonderful 'get-you-home' to have on board for peace of mind.
I don't think you will be dissapointed with its power, but I would say that even with two batteries you may find the range limiting. I understand that you can charge the Torqeedo battery from another battery so you could carry a large leisure battery to charge from if you are going to be away from mains power for any time.
Let us know how you get on.
Title: Torqueedo Electric outboards
Post by: VROUW KIRSTEN on July 06, 2016, 05:32:33 PM
Hello Martin,

I have purchased the Torqueedo 1003S, but had to find out space between the motor bracket and the boat is too short. So I decided to manufacture a stainless steel trough and build into the inner stern side. It fits very well.

For those who want to use the Torqueedo too or have similar problems I add the constructional drawing for replication. I will add a photo of the installation later.

Kind regards


Gerold
Title: Some days with the Torqueedo 1003S
Post by: VROUW KIRSTEN on July 23, 2016, 05:58:02 PM
Hello,

as I wrote I have installed the Torqueedo and made some trips with the new equipment.

First of all, it is important to become familiar with the motor handling reading the manual and exercise all functions and the effects to the boat before gravely situations happens.

I didn´t -as a result I have to repair a hole at the bow  :(

But, the motor is a efficient propulsion for my WB. Against 4 Bft. (at a lake, with fetch of app. 4 km) the WB runs with app. 4 knots, the motor would last 45 min as the motor display says.

Sound of the motor, especially at full speed, is like a turbine, but at normal conditions, today at 2-3 Bft., it runs at 20 to 30 % power and it is ok. Definitly a combustion engine will be much more distinctly.

If the boat is sailing and the motor is still in in position, the screw begins to rotate by the flow. This begins at a speed of app. 4 km/h. I decided to remove the motor if I want to sail only.

This year I will stay at the Duemmer Lake only, next year Northsea and Baltic Sea (coastal areas) will be my testing area.

I`ve added photos of installation space of Torqueedo.

Kind regards

Gerold

Title: Torqueedo in different situations
Post by: VROUW KIRSTEN on April 18, 2017, 08:09:45 AM
Hello,

in 2016 I was very satisfied with the power of my Torqueedo at each situation. But, to be honest, on a lake of app. 38 sq km  are not so many difficult situations.

This year I launched the WB 120 at strong wind of 5 to 6 Beaufort, squalls up to 7 Beaufort. I had to transfer the boat leaving one small cove against the wind, app. 400 m parallel to the wind and at least back into another cove with tailwind.  It was a distance of app. 1 km with remarkable waves and the boat danced in a vivacious manner  ;D

The Torqueedo worked full power and gave for the distance 10% of battery charge. I could control the boats movement direction safely all the time.

Gerold
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Martin on April 22, 2017, 08:11:41 AM
Thanks for publishing the results of your motor trials, Gerold.
As mentioned previously I keep the Torqueedo as an auxilliary on an drop-down transom bracket, so I have often wondered how it would perform.
I am off to Morbihan next month so I will do a bit of testing (although not in some of the more ferocious 10 Knot currents :-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=095PdISuZZ8)
 Not a tow car but this has kept me off the streets the last 18 months:-
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: David Bone on June 19, 2018, 09:01:59 PM
I recently installed a Torqeedo 1003CS on W/B 107.
When mounted on the originally positioned outboard bracket, the fin of the motor projects about 4" below the keel and as I have an attraction for shallow water, with the occasional grounding, I moved the bracket up by 110mm.
By inserting 10mm spacers behind the bracket, the battery clears the well back plate by about 5mm, without modification and the forward end of the propellor hub clears the aft end of the keel by 15mm.
In operation, this works o.k.
I elected to install the optional remote controller, instead of the tiller, as I felt this would intrude too far into the cockpit and be a nuisance. The remote is bolted to a right angled plywood bracket, angled up by 30 degrees for screen visibility, which in turn is bolted through to the port locker, secured by hand tightened wing nuts, permitting removal after each outing.
Attached, should be a couple of photographs, illustrating the installation.
David Bone
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: VROUW KIRSTEN on June 22, 2018, 12:55:21 PM
Hello David,

looking quite good! To lift the motor position avoiding grond contact is a good idea. I didn´t until yet because of the depth in the Duemmer lake, there ist normally no problem with this.

I have made the experience that during sailing with app. 2,5 to 3,0 knots the Torqueedo starts to rotate because of the water streaming past to the propeller. It sounds as if the motor still running, a very annoying sound. Because of this if I plan to sail a little longer I prefer to remove the Torqueedo until I plan to land again.

Last year I´ve sailed at Baltic sea, I prefer a 6 PS Petrol outboard because of power and available operating time.

Kind regards form Germany

Gerold 

 
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: David Bone on June 23, 2018, 05:23:37 AM
Hello Gerold,
My experience with the Torqeedo is recent and limited, so I haven't yet fully established its qualities.
Intended use is on the English lakes, where I feel it should do well and also be more environmentally friendly. (Noise, fumes and safety with grandchildren overnighting.)
However, I do agree, that for the sea, it would be inadequate and a petrol outboard is presently the only viable solution, so have retained my Mariner 4 for this use.
Return greetings from Cumbria.
David
........
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: dave_cawston on June 23, 2018, 07:20:48 PM
Well done David for taking the plunge and investing in the Torqueedo.  I eagerly await reports on range/running time etc. under Lake District operating conditions.  And just how noisy is it in comparison with a petrol OB?
David C
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: David Bone on July 07, 2018, 08:17:59 PM
Responding to Gerold & David's inputs, here are some initial impressions of the Torqeedo Travel 1003CS.

1/ Gerold notes that the propellor rotates under sail at speeds over 2.5 knots.
So far, at speeds up to 4.5 knots, I have noted no rotation and think this is probably due to the unit being sited higher, with the 2 bladed propellor shielded fully behind the keel.

2/ Attached is a table of speeds, time and distance ranges achieved at a trial on Coniston Water and wonder how this compares with Gerold's experiences.

3/ At 3/4 throttle and above, there is considerable turbulence and backwash in the outboard well, which will be holding back some potential speed and in the longer term, I may well fit removable baffle plates in the bottom of the well. (a.k.a. Roger Parrish) My higher propellor position probably makes this more noticeable.

4/ Whilst certainly much quieter than a petrol outboard, the unit is by no means silent and above 1/2 throttle, there is a fairly high pitched whine from the gearbox.
(Competitor, EPropulsions's, comparable unit has a direct drive, brushless DC motor, which is apparently quite and of lower pitch.)

5/ To lock the battery to the motor unit, a long pin is inserted from the side, too long to be fitted whilst in the well, so the whole unit has to be assembled before lowering into position, which is a nuisance.  The battery is fairly well secured on the motor with location lugs and unlikely to dislodge, so I made a shorter hardwood pin, allowing me to secure the motor on the mounting bracket, then fit the battery and lock it on one side whilst in the well. Due to restricted space around, I think the boat would have to near capsize for the battery to fall off.

6/ Response, ease of use and hence manoeuvrability is greatly enhanced over a petrol outboard.

7/ The tiller/control unit display information is comprehensive and most useful. (Not least under sail.)

8/ In the past, I have usually only used the outboard when essential, for about 20 mins each outing, so for this use range would not be an issue but I plan to make more use of this electric unit and it remains to be seen whether one battery will provide sufficient resources.  Current thoughts are that the manufacturer's battery duration claims are optimistic and I am a little disappointed. (Additional batteries are unfortunately, very expensive.

These are very much first impressions and may change with more experience.
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: Martin on July 09, 2018, 08:21:58 AM
That's a really useful posting David. Many thanks.

I purchased the Torqeedo a couple of years ago and have only used it as an auxilliary on a transom bracket (and on the Avon).

As I can't reach over and fit the battery to the unit safely, I bought a longer tiller connecting cable (a standard extra) and keep the battery in the rear locker. This means it is out of harm's way as it is quite an expensive and easily pinchable item. Also,  there are no problems with fitting the retaining pin.

One point to mention about the remote control unit. I bought one originally, but found it was very susceptable to sun damage and mine packed up within quite a short period of time. I recommend that if you buy one, you try and site it somewhere in the shade and put a cover on it when not in use.
 
Title: Re: Electric outboards
Post by: David Bone on July 11, 2018, 09:29:24 PM
Hello Martin,
Thanks for your advice, particularly re sun damage to the remote controller, which has now received attention.